Curse

drkn · Jan 31, 2010, 03:19 PM // 15:19

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FC water, FC curse, FC stoning

using non-mesmer skills is not what we're talking about here. ES curse ele might do the same well in pve.

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VoR

the only really useful elite. and, well, the one that got recently nerfed.

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backfire, empathy

they're fun, but they kill half the damage from VoR, thanks to the nerf. so again, mesmers got hit by nerfs.
they would be much more viable and desired in groups if they were cheaper/on shorter recharge or AoE. i would love to see backfire becoming cheaper/shorter rc and empathy going AoE.

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drain enchant, shatter enchant

rip enchant > any mesmer enchant removal.

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virulence spike, signet of illusions spelljacking

again, non-mesmer skills. because inherent mesmer skills suck in pve.
and that's what we'd like to change.

a sin without the use of secondary profession can be useful in pve. same is true for monk, ele, rit, derv, war, necro, ranger. up to some point, also for para. so why mesmers have to rely on secondary profession if they want to run anything useful?

Lanier · Jan 31, 2010, 03:24 PM // 15:24

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Originally Posted by Voice of Reason

A player shouldn't be gimped for playing the class he or she wants.

Well if you really want to play the class, why do you want it to be changed. There isnt any other reason to play mesmer unless you like disrupting, interupting, punishing, etc. If this is not the case then you are not really playing the class you want to play. You say a play shouldn't be gimped for playing the class he or she wants. If you consider "not being able to do enough damage" as being "gimped", then you dont want to play a mesmer, you want to play a sin or dps-oriented class.

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i think that the real question is if we want to have complete specialists in guild wars or classes that have some stage of versatility. either way, one rule should apply to all professions.

I dont understand why one rule should apply to all professions? Right now, there are some professions that are meant to be specialists and others that are meant to be versatile. Because of the amount of professions in the game, there needs to be some who are specialists and others who are versatile, or several professions will end up being just like each other... and then what would be the point of even having multiple professions?

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they're fun, but they kill half the damage from VoR, thanks to the nerf.

Well only if your stupid enough to put empathy or backfire on the same target that has VoR. You should try to get VoR on as many enemies as possible and then use Backfire/empathy on those who didnt get hexed by VoR.

And you cant really compare rip enchantment to shatter or drain. They are all completely different skills as rip is meant to be a cheap enchantment removal that inflicts a minor condition while shatter is meant primarily for the large armor ignoring damage and drain is primarily for the e-management.

Del · Jan 31, 2010, 03:27 PM // 15:27

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Originally Posted by drkn

they're fun, but they kill half the damage from VoR, thanks to the nerf. .

you dump hexes on the same target? you could hex another, or wait till one hex expires and use another, but both at the same time? lol.........

drkn · Jan 31, 2010, 03:38 PM // 15:38

the point about VoR and other hexes is not brought up to say what i'm doing, but to point out that mesmers got nerfed in their only (or one of two, if you include ESurge) versatile and useful elite in pve. that said, a class that already had crappy damage output is cut even deeper.

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I dont understand why one rule should apply to all professions?

for the sake of balance.
i don't think that monks specialised in heal/prot, eles in nuking, warrs in hammer/sword/axe, sins in daggers, dervs in scythes, rits in spirits, paras in shouts (or the other way, there's a lot of possibilies to divide the roles) would lead us to 'some classes being the same'. we can argue that all classes are the same, as they either deal or prevent damage. but the playstyle is still different, and so it would be different for dagger sin and for scythe derv.
however, that would limit your options and make classes with less useful specialisation crippled. as mesmers, paras or - probably - dagger sins. so i think it's not the way to go.

i think that there should be a clear specialisation - like dervish is the best with a scythe, period; mesmer has clearly the best interrupts; para has the best shout and general party-wide boosts, etc - but every profession should be versatile in pve to some point. of course, i don't imagine warriors casting spells or mesmers being good tankers, don't get me wrong; but there should be something to choose from with your character, not relying on gimmicks, not relying fully on subclass.

Voice of Reason · Jan 31, 2010, 03:59 PM // 15:59

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Originally Posted by Lanier

Well if you really want to play the class, why do you want it to be changed. There isnt any other reason to play mesmer unless you like disrupting, interupting, punishing, etc. If this is not the case then you are not really playing the class you want to play. You say a play shouldn't be gimped for playing the class he or she wants. If you consider "not being able to do enough damage" as being "gimped", then you dont want to play a mesmer, you want to play a sin or dps-oriented class.

You don't have to change the fundamentals of a class to improve it.

Lanier · Jan 31, 2010, 04:04 PM // 16:04

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Originally Posted by Voice of Reason

You don't have to change the fundamentals of a class to improve it.

But the fundamentals of mesmers dont need improving. Mesmers are already the best profession at disruption and interuption.

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for the sake of balance.

The professions can be balanced without one rule applying to all of them. As long as the ranger is as good at being versatile as the mesmer is at interupting/disrupting, i see that as being balanced. A specialized profession may have some stuff they are really good at and some stuff they are really bad at but a versatile profession will be one that doesnt have any weak points and that has only minor strong points. I realize that many people think of "jack of all trades" professions as being weaker than specialized professions. If this is the case, then slightly change the "jack of all trades" profession until it reaches the level of a specialized profession. my point though is that professions can be balanced without them all following the same "rule".

Lanier · Jan 31, 2010, 04:05 PM // 16:05

EDIT: wow, i totally didnt mean to double post. disregard this message.

Voice of Reason · Jan 31, 2010, 04:12 PM // 16:12

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Originally Posted by Lanier

But the fundamentals of mesmers dont need improving. Mesmers are already the best profession at disruption and interuption.

But those fundamentals are bad in PvE, so they do. And, although that's probably more of a problem with PvE than with mesmers, we know PvE won't get changed.

drkn · Jan 31, 2010, 07:37 PM // 19:37

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A specialized profession may have some stuff they are really good at and some stuff they are really bad at

aka good at disruption, which is bad and hard in pve, and bad at everything else?

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a versatile profession will be one that doesnt have any weak points and that has only minor strong points.

you've summoned a ranger up there, so let me hit this string too. both as a ranger and as a mesmer, you won't fill your entire skill tab with interrupts. so, abundance of interrupts means nothing, as there are better and worse ones, while those the worst are just fillers, never to be used.
ranger is capable to be as good interrupter as mesmer in pve, with a higher damage output or better survivability at the same time. and that's a problem, too. just get BHA, 3-4 interrupts and you have 3-4 slots for some nice damage, spreading conditions, blocks - use at your will. a mesmer is limited to only disruption & punishment (aka indirect damage, still inferior to any direct one) while their interrupting role, so crucial to them, can be fully played by another class. contrary, they cannot fully play any other role now.
that's simply not right, doesn't matter if you call it unfair or unbalanced. so either leave the whole disrupting line to mesmers, nerfing rangers and designing a specialised branch for them, and do the same unto other classes, or balance all classes so they're able to play several roles, at least one fully useful. i prefer the second option.

keep in mind, please, that i'm talking about pve all the time. i never argued about mesmers in pvp, as their skills are balanced over it and they're full potential can be seen there. still, it doesn't mean that they should have nearly none potential in pve, as it's the other side of the same coin.

IrishX · Jan 31, 2010, 07:52 PM // 19:52

Every class does not have to be strong in PvE. It is quite clear that the mesmer was designed to be a PvP oriented class. It is still possible to go through everything in PvE with a mesmer, so it does not really need a change. Rangers are also pretty weak in PvE, should they be buffed, too? Eles based around damage are also weak, should fire skills not do at least 150 base damage to compensate for higher armor in HM?

drkn · Jan 31, 2010, 07:57 PM // 19:57

eles can do other roles - they can tank, heal, decently farm with no problems. an ele can be a bit slow, but fully working 600 tank. their damage in hard mode, based around fire spells, becomes pretty weak, but they can blind and interrupt their foes with water spells, being an effective support, not to mention earth magic wards that totally rock at mallyx. also, some air magic builds work wonders in hard mode.
rangers have one gimmick that works everywhere and deals superb damage - splinter barrage. even if you refuse to play on gimmicks, you can be an interrupter around BHA, still dealing considerable damage; you can effectively spread conditions and deal damage; you can be a runner (faster than sins at some routes); your spirits are essential in builds designed to farm foundry and kill urgoz. on top of that, your primairy attribute, expertise, is currently overpowered, as it works for ritualist spirits and necromancer touch skills.

what mesmers can fully do besides pve-shitty disrupt?

e:
besides, take a look at ritualists. they sucked in pve as well, when all binding rituals took 4-7 seconds to cast. they were considered inferior because they had to waste time to use their skills, wait for recharge and couldn't resummon spirits mid-battle. and they got buffed, even overbuffed - any other profession is able to run spiritmancer build to farm nick's stuff every week. any/rt is a sure high dps in the team, a body blocker, a semi-tanker.
is anyone whining about it? i've seen some, maybe two, posts regarding that, saying it's overpowered and broken. but apart of that, not really.
so why buffing mesmers, who are now the most shitty class in general pve, meets so big resistance, even from some fellow mesmers?

maxxfury · Jan 31, 2010, 09:02 PM // 21:02

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Originally Posted by drkn

so why buffing mesmers, who are now the most shitty class in general pve, meets so big resistance, even from some fellow mesmers?

Thats generally people who dont know any better, dont play mes, have seemingly little gw experience or are scared their own fave class wont be no#1 anymore...

If someone cant see that the pve mes needs 'something' doin then they are likely a lost cause when it comes to talking PVE balance(lol balance)

The mes has a VERY small niche in pve, and thats spamming sins and shouts...in a very generic way, not mesmery in anyway at all, or fevered dreaming..

Cuilan · Jan 31, 2010, 09:09 PM // 21:09

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Originally Posted by Lanier

But the fundamentals of mesmers dont need improving. Mesmers are already the best profession at disruption and interuption.

Mesmers are the worst at disruption in PvE. An Ether Renewal elementalist spamming Great Dwarf Weapon on rangers and assassins is far superior than a mesmer in PvE. The only shutdown build mesmers have that can compete with that isn't interruption or e-denial. It's condition spread (just a matter of time before Anet nerfs that too). That leaves a massive list of useless skills.

I love mesmer for their weird quirky skills, built in fast casting (which isn't as good as many consumables), armor, interactivity with the enemies, and more. So no, others and myself shouldn't have to reroll as something else if there are many reasons to like something.

Balance means just that. Balance in power and usefulness.

Lanier · Jan 31, 2010, 09:16 PM // 21:16

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Originally Posted by drkn

e:
besides, take a look at ritualists. they sucked in pve as well, when all binding rituals took 4-7 seconds to cast. they were considered inferior because they had to waste time to use their skills, wait for recharge and couldn't resummon spirits mid-battle. and they got buffed, even overbuffed - any other profession is able to run spiritmancer build to farm nick's stuff every week. any/rt is a sure high dps in the team, a body blocker, a semi-tanker.
is anyone whining about it? i've seen some, maybe two, posts regarding that, saying it's overpowered and broken. but apart of that, not really.
so why buffing mesmers, who are now the most shitty class in general pve, meets so big resistance, even from some fellow mesmers?

Spirits originally costed 3-5 sec to cast, not 4-7 sec.

Yes, i do think that Signet of Spirits should be nerfed. I also think that all spirit's base damage should be lowered dramatically and that Spawning power should affect the damage of spirits. This would encourage the use of rit spirit spammers over x/rt spirit spammers.

I think you are missing the point i am trying to make. Even as a mesmer, PvE is incredibly easy. EASY. not a challenge. Everyone pretty much agrees that PvE can be done with a blank skill bar. So WHY? why do mesmers need a buff when they can already roll through PvE? Maybe they do it slightly slower than other professions, but they can still roll through it easily. The reason I am so opposed to mesmers (or any class for that matter) getting buffed any more is because PvE doesnt need to be made any easier. If Anet would make PvE a lot harder, then I may support more buffs. But as it is, the game is way too easy and buffs are NOT the thing we need. Mesmers dont need nerfs, although many other professions may need them, but they certainly do not need buffs as well. Mesmers can already blow through PvE. I mean, you dont even need a Evas spamming bar to blow through PvE since it can be done with a blank bar. Power creep has just turned PvE into a joke for any profession.

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An Ether Renewal elementalist spamming Great Dwarf Weapon on rangers and assassins is far superior than a mesmer in PvE.

GDW can be spammed with any caster profession. Its not like you need unlimited energy to maintain GDW on 2 people. Even if you did, mesmers have some pretty cool e-management spells in their inspiration line and can spec into /e for gole if you dont have the reflexes to use power drain and you are in an area without enchantments for drain enchantment and you arent using a skill on your bar that combines well with auspicious, etc.

Skyy High · Jan 31, 2010, 09:18 PM // 21:18

IoP nerf only makes a difference if a monster is alive for more than 8 seconds. When does that happen? Nerfs on mesmer skills really aren't the problem here, and they never have been; it's the fact that mesmers are a class that get better as the opponents get better, specifically smarter, that makes them so unwanted in PvE. That's not going to change with just a few skill changes.

Cuilan · Jan 31, 2010, 09:42 PM // 21:42

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Originally Posted by Lanier

mesmers have some pretty cool e-management spells in their inspiration line and can spec into /e for gole if you dont have the reflexes to use power drain and you are in an area without enchantments for drain enchantment and you arent using a skill on your bar that combines well with auspicious, etc.

Lulz.

Why bring a mesmer when you can condense your party by having GDW on someone else? A useless skill is still useless.

Skyy High, you just said mesmers are fine and then turned around and indirectly said they are not.

A few skill changes can change something, that's why it's called change.

Shriketalon · Jan 31, 2010, 10:14 PM // 22:14

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Originally Posted by Lanier

Even as a mesmer, PvE is incredibly easy. EASY. not a challenge. Everyone pretty much agrees that PvE can be done with a blank skill bar. So WHY? why do mesmers need a buff when they can already roll through PvE?

Your argument is incredibly flawed.

"PvE is easy, ergo X doesn't need a buff," is wrong because it is the heroes and builds that allow people to roll over PvE easily. As a mesmer, you are completely relying on your party to get you through, because you contribute little to the things that solve PvE.

Meanwhile, buffing Mesmers in general means every single mesmer monster gets harder. Harder mesmer monsters means more disruption, more enchantment removal, and more interruptions; things that would help against the most overpowered skills in this game. Harder monsters means better gameplay, because PvE is suddenly more intense.

Right now, pretty much every mesmer monster is a walking joke. The only time they can ever do anything is in packs, like the wind riders, who can be slain through basic attack spam. If mesmer monsters got tougher with better enchantment removal, more interruption of significant skills, and better hex spreads, it would add challenge to gameplay.

Buffing underpowered classes is good for the goose and the gander, helping players of that profession as well as monsters across the continents. It makes the game, as a whole, more fun, because the Mesmer players can be Credit To Team and the mobs take more tactical thinking and concentration.

drkn · Jan 31, 2010, 10:41 PM // 22:41

+1 shriketalon. couldn't say it better.
add the reason that playing a mesmery mesmer, right now, is awfully limited. buffing them would not only make pve more interesting, but give us more freedom in playstyle. that's my top point from the very beginning - if you like your pve disruption, you'll still play it; if i - and lots of others - don't, we'll get additional ways.

e:
there's also another problem. imagine if two or more mesmers would like to join one group, both trying to go mesmery rather than AP sin spammers. one can use disruption, even though it sucks in pve, it's a possible option; what about the second one? second disruption bar? i think you'll agree it's an overkill out there. there's no strong, fully working second option for us and that's the qq here.

Lanier · Jan 31, 2010, 10:55 PM // 22:55

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Why bring a mesmer when you can condense your party by having GDW on someone else? A useless skill is still useless.

You had said that "mesmers are the worst at disruption in PvE". I was just saying that thats not true.

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"PvE is easy, ergo X doesn't need a buff," is wrong because it is the heroes and builds that allow people to roll over PvE easily. As a mesmer, you are completely relying on your party to get you through, because you contribute little to the things that solve PvE.

First off, your arnt relying completely on your party. As a mesmer you ARE doing something, just not as much as other party members. In addition, im not just saying that PvE is easy because of the heroes and the hero builds. PvE is easy because the monsters are not tough enough, do not have enough skills (in non eotn areas), and do not have good monks. There is a group at the guild wars inc forums that occasionally gets together do do "all mesmer" stuff. They have vanquished, done elite areas, and done missions and such all in HM. I went with a couple of these groups awhile ago. If a class that is clearly inferior at healing and damage, as you say, can roll through PvE with a mesmerway group, then that proves that heroes of other profs are not the reason why PvE is easy. PvE is easy because of the environment, and adding more buffs will only make it that much easier. As long as you play smart when putting your team together and make sure to have proper support (multiple copies of Aegis, some hex and condition removal, a minion master where appropriate), PvE is going to be easy.

You say you want more freedom in playstyle. That is why there are 10 different professions. If you dont like the mesmer playstyle, then dont play as one. There is no reason to buff mesmer's dps when other professions that are meant to be dps-oriented are available.

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there's also another problem. imagine if two or more mesmers would like to join one group, both trying to go mesmery rather than AP sin spammers. one can use disruption, even though it sucks in pve, it's a possible option; what about the second one? second disruption bar? i think you'll agree it's an overkill out there. there's no strong, fully working second option for us and that's the qq here.

I dont think you understand what im trying to say. I am not advocating a disruption bar in PvE. I am simply saying that mesmers do not need buffs because even a bar as bad in PvE as a disruption bar wins PvE.

drkn · Jan 31, 2010, 10:59 PM // 22:59

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I dont think you understand what im trying to say. I am not advertising a disruption bar in PvE. I am simply saying that mesmers do not need buffs because even a bar as bad in PvE as a disruption bar wins PvE.

you ever tried hard mode underworld with full players team?
it doesn't work then. none mesmery option works when you can't set up your heroes and you face something more demanding than typical vq or mission.
and even when one mesmer runs disruption at a very decent level, with botlike skills, every other mesmer is rendered useless.

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As a mesmer you ARE doing something, just not as much as other party members.

yeah, get drops